Saturday, July 26, 2008

Fundamentals of Fundamentalists and Mormonism

So now the Mormons are trying to take away the rights of the living--saying that fundamentalists aren't Mormons. So called experts have weighed in on the matter with one--Dr. John Walsh--even issuing a press release to set the record straight on just how close to Mormonism fundamentalists really are.

As I have read his comments, I've wondered what it is that makes him an expert on Mormonism and Fundamentalists? His data seems to me to be very suspect. Add to that B. Carmon Hardy's comments that "These fundamentalists [have] good reason to look upon themselves as the most faithful," and people might just think that the FLDS are the closest thing to Mormon Orthodoxy that you can find. My own experience says otherwise.

In 1838, Joseph Smith published a list of items meant to correct misinformation about him and the theology he embraced. In answer to the question, "What are the fundamental principles of your religion?" he wrote, "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it." (Elders' Journal, July 1838, p. 44.)

If you were to ask a so-called Mormon fundamentalist what the fundamentals of his religion are, you'd get a very different answer. As I've pondered John Walsh's claim that 95% of our theology and that 75% of our practice is the same as the FLDS, I thought it would be appropriate to evaluate that opinion.

The premise of Mormonism rests upon the concept that the Church established by Jesus Christ fell into apostasy and was restored to the earth by the ministering of angels, who conferred upon Joseph Smith apostolic authority. As a modern apostle, he had the authority to establish anew the Church of Jesus Christ and direct its affairs on the earth. The premise continues that upon the death of Joseph Smith, this apostolic authority continued in the Church in the person of Brigham Young and through the process of time his successors in the priesthood until today where it resides with Thomas S. Monson. This line of succession includes 15 presidents of the Church. Of those 15 men, the FLDS recognize only 3, for a total of 20% in common with the LDS. But that barely scratches the surface.

The chasm that separates the F from the LDS on the foundational issue of authority, cannot be understood without considering a few elements of Mormon history. Joseph Smith claimed that he had been ordained an apostle by the ancient apostles: Peter, James and John, and that they told him to ordain others. Joseph Smith reported that when he asked God how to proceed in ordaining others to the priesthood, he said:
We were, however, commanded to defer this our ordination until such times as it should be practicable to have our brethren, who had been and who should be baptized, assembled together, when we must have their sanction to our thus proceeding to ordain each other, and have them decide by vote whether they were willing to accept us as spiritual teachers or not; (History of the Church vol 1 p. 62)
Thereby entered into the faith and practice of Mormonism the concept of "common consent" precluding the surreptitious ordination of any individual. After the Church was formally organized, Joseph Smith presented a constitution to the Church outlining many of its practices, policies and doctrines. This constitution reiterated that no one was to be ordained to any office in the Church without the vote of the Church. (D&C 20:63,65).

As converts joined the new Church, certain individuals claimed prerogatives in the Church that belonged only to its leaders. In order to correct such arrogations of authority, Joseph Smith again reiterated by revelation the provision that no one had authority to teach or lead the Church unless they had been "regularly ordained" by the heads of the Church and that it was known to the Church that such an ordination had taken place (D&C 42:11)

Within a few days of that revelation, Joseph Smith outlined to the Church what he termed as a "commandment for a law" to the Church. It was that only one man was appointed in the Church to receive revelations and commandments for the Church--that he had the only authority to provide such direction and that the Church was forbidden from receiving the revelations or commandments of any others as long as he lived. Then, explaining that this was a safety feature to protect the Church from impostors, he said, "he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed."

How closely does the FLDS group adhere to this commandment? Not only have they rejected every individual that the Church has approved by vote, but not one of their leaders has ever been "regularly ordained" or voted upon by the body of the Mormon Church. Joseph Smith claimed that he did not have the authority to ordain others without their sustaining vote. Joseph Smith's 5th Article of Faith stipulates that "We believe that a man must be called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof." This fundamental element of our faith and practice merits a 0% by the FLDS movement.

What about Church organization? Well, for years the FLDS and others who refer to themselves as "fundamentalists" have taught that the Church was incidental to the priesthood and was unnecessary. Consequently, they have never had a First Presidency, a Quorum of Twelve Apostles or a Quorum of Seventy as outlined in Joseph Smith's revelation on Church government. They have a man whom they claim is "the prophet" known universally as "uncle" but even their so-called "priesthood council" is devoid of any Mormon fundamental elements specified in section 107 of the Doctrine and Covenants.
Wherefore, it must needs be that one be appointed of the High Priesthood to preside over the priesthood, and he shall be called President of the High Priesthood of the Church; (D&C 107:65).
The practice of the FLDS to refer to their prophet as "uncle"--reminds me of an uncanonized revelation of Joseph Smith from 1834 that reproved the members of the Church for failing to recognize leaders by their official titles. In the realm of authority, ordination, common consent, and Church structure the FLDS movement has no correlation to LDS practice or theology.

While much more might be written--and I plan to continue later on--Brigham Young warned Mormons about people who had apostatized from the Church in his day. He said, "They say they believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet raised up to establish the work of the last days, and bring forth the Book of Mormon; and thus they deceive. But if you will examine them you will not find anything but contradiction to every principle of truth."

About 20 years ago, we had a family gathering with aunts and uncles. My immediate family consisting of my mother and father and brothers and sisters were the only LDS people there among many fundamentalists. We started singing together an old family favorite titled "The Mormon Sunday School." I think it's a variation of a similarly named Baptist song. It consists mostly of distorted Bible stories sung in a humorous vein and has probably scores of verses. My uncle Owen sang this verse:
Esau was a farmer of wild and woolley make,
Half the farm belonged to him and half to brother Jake.
Esau saw the title to his land was none too clear,
so he sold it to his brother for a sandwich and a beer.

Everyone laughed at the end of each verse. After a few other favorite verses, my brother Arnie offered one he'd written--noting that it came from the Book of Mormon rather than the Bible:
To the Gadianton robbers we owe all the thanks,
for robbing all of the Nephite banks.
They robbed every bank in the whole darn nation,
'cause they all knew the secret combination.

Everyone in my family had heard the verse before and so we waited for everyone to get the joke. Only two people did. They say they believe in the Book of Mormon.

More later---

7 Comments:

Blogger JohnLester said...

Good gravy, you MORON.

The 2nd and 3rd Presidents of the LDS church (and the FLDS church), Yong and Taylor, BOTH prophesied that the LDS would fall QUICKLY into APOSTASY (leaving some of the most fundamental tenets of Mormonism behind).

Taylor went so far as to be very SPECIFIC about it, stating that the church would be in apostasy by the 7th President (whose term started in 1918). It's not coincidental that the LDS *finally* got serious about eradidating the principle of Plural Celestial Marriage in the 1930s during the term of the 7th LDS president. When the LDS started actually ex-communicating for Plural Marriage practice in the 1930s, the apostasy that Taylor had prophesied of had been fulfilled.

Woodruff, the 4th President unto whom the TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN 'revelation' came, well, it didn't CONCERN Woodruff very much because after 1890 he continued to live in polygyny and continued to take ADDITIONAL plural wives. So did every church President thru and including the 6th LDS President, Joseph Fielding Smith (he admitted he was living in plural marriage before testimony to Congress in the early 1900s, around 1904 or 1906 as I recall).

And when was the LAST time you EVER HEARD OF A REVELATION FROM GOD *anywhere* in Patriarchal Scripture start and be addressed, TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN.

Please.

Walsh (and I) know far more about this subject than you could ever HOPE to know. You're wrong, Walsh and I are right, and the FLDS are an EXTREMELY CLOSE representation of Mormonism of the mid and late 1800s whereas the LDS church is a CHEAP IMITATION of today's "modern" Protestant/Evangelical/Liturgical churches.

As the grandson of a Pentecostal preacher, I more fully appreciate than anyone else the Protestant ass that the LDS has spent 118 years kissing.

How you have nearly completely squandered such a unique and marvelous spiritual legacy of uniqueness in only 118 years is beyond me.

You need to return to that for which the Prophet died. Celestial Plural Marriage, United Order, Adam-God doctrine and MUCH MORE.

For more information see:

http://groups.google.com/group/fatherabrahamschildrentogether

7/31/08 9:36 PM  
Blogger Alma said...

John,

Thanks for the comment—except for the part where you call me a moron.

It seems to me that you have missed the point of my two posts detailing why I believe John Walsh and you are up in the night. I outlined several doctrinal and historical elements of Mormonism—that I believe were adequately referenced—demonstrating why Walsh is mistaken. But, it seems the best you can do is call me a moron make a few ludicrous claims that are woefully lacking in substance.

You and Mr. Walsh may very well know much more than I on the subject, but if so, demonstrate it, don’t just throw out the same old tired canards of fundamentalism. They don’t stand up to scrutiny.

They do, however, illustrate the wackiness of fundamentalist theology—such as your claim that Joseph Smith died for Celestial Plural Marriage, United Order and the Adam theory(!) If you’ll take a look at section 135 of the Doctrine and Covenants, you’ll find that John Taylor wrote that Joseph Smith died to seal his testimony of the Book of Mormon. That comment appeared in the 1844 edition of the D&C (section 111) and every other edition since.

If you were familiar with LDS history, you’d also know that men have been excommunicated for adultery (under the guise of polygamy) since the days of Joseph Smith--not such since the 1930's. Brigham Young excommunicated W.W. Phelps for adultery—after Phelps claimed to have married sisters.

Brigham Young said “It is not polygamy that men fight against when they persecute this people;” yet you think that’s what Joseph died for?

Your claims that Brigham Young and John Taylor prophesied that the Church would fall into apostasy come from one sorry source: Lorin Woolley. Do you realize he also said he shook hands with Joseph Smith in 1886—even though Joseph’s body was exhumed in 1928? How can you fall for such bogus blather?

Joseph taught that there is no salvation in believing an evil report against our neighbor. Your claim that Wilford Woodruff married after the Manifesto is a false report and I know better than to believe it.

8/3/08 7:20 PM  
Blogger JohnLester said...

How does it feel cowardly standing on the side of human government with Herod arrayed in opposition to the Saints? regarding Woolley, of course he encountered Joseph Smith face to face in 1886. Do you seriously think that just because Joseph Smith's physical body was still in the grave in 1928 that that somehow disproves the 1886 claim of Woolley?

You don't really believe in God at all, do you, Alma?

And you're writing to me because you know that I do, REALLY DO, and that fascinates you...

Here's some stuff to chew on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff

Circumstantial evidence suggests Woodruff courted Lydia Mountford, an international lecturer and Jewish rights advocate, and may have married her in September 1897.[2] Brigham Young University professor Thomas G. Alexander examined Woodruff and Mountford's interactions in his Woodruff biography and concludes that the marriage did not occur. However, D. Michael Quinn and B. Carmon Hardy have come to the contrary conclusion.[citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow

Family

Before leaving Nauvoo, Snow accepted the principle of plural marriage and took four wives: Charlotte Squires (age 20), Mary Adaline Goddard (age 32), Sarah Ann Prichard (age 18), and Harriet Amelia Squires (age 26). Snow would later take several more wives: Eleanor Houtz (age 14), Mary Elizabeth Houtz (younger sister of Eleanor), Caroline Horton (age 29), Sarah Minnie Ephamina (age 16). Snow also wed the 17-year-old Pheobe Woodruff, the daughter of Wilford Woodruff. Snow fathered the child Rhea Lucile Snow at the age of 83 while serving as president of the LDS Church. Snow's sister Eliza R. Snow was also a polygamous wife of Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith

Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr. (November 13, 1838 – November 19, 1918) was the sixth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). He was the last president of the LDS Church to have personally known the founder of the Mormon faith, Joseph Smith, Jr., who was the brother of his father Hyrum Smith.

One of the first issues he faced was the ongoing difficulties for the Church due to the practice of plural marriage. As Church President, Smith supported Mormon Apostle Reed Smoot's candidacy for the U.S. Senate. But Smoot's election was contested on the grounds that he was an officer in the Church. The Senate investigation again focused national attention on Mormon marriages and political influence. Following his appearance before a Senate panel in 1904, Smith took steps to prevent any surreptitious continuation of church plural marriages. On April 6, 1904, Smith issued the "Second Manifesto." He also declared that any church officer who performed a plural marriage, as well as the offending couple, would be excommunicated. He clarified that the policy applied world-wide, and not just in North America. Two members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, John W. Taylor and Matthias F. Cowley, resigned in 1905 following the second manifesto. Smith, however, continued to live with his plural wives after the 1890 and the 1905 manifestos. In 1906, Smith was brought to trial on a charge of unlawful cohabitation with four women in addition to his lawful wife; he pleaded guilty and was fined $300, the maximum penalty then permitted under the law.[2]

>>>Interesting that 3rd President Taylor said the church would be in APOSTASY by the 7th President and the 6th President was the last LDS president to have personally known Joseph Smith. Yes, there's only rumors of post-1890 Presidents and other top leaders taking on additional wives, but anybody with a half a brain that reads extensively from that period knows that with all of the smoke there that there is plenty of fire. Furthermore, you have TWO of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS church TODAY sealed to multiple wives for eternity. Here's some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_Manifesto


D. Michael Quinn and other Mormon historians have documented that some church apostles covertly sanctioned plural marriages after the Manifesto. This practice was especially prevalent in Mexico and Canada because of an erroneous belief that such marriages were legal in those jurisdictions.[13] However, a significant minority were performed in Utah and other western American states and territories. The estimates of the number of post-Manifesto plural marriages performed range from scores to thousands, with the actual figure probably close to 250.[14] Today, the LDS Church officially acknowledges that although the Manifesto "officially ceased" the practice of plural marriage in the church, "the ending of the practice after the Manifesto was ... gradual."[15]

Rumors of post-Manifesto marriages surfaced and began to be examined by Congress in the Reed Smoot hearings. In response, church president Joseph F. Smith issued a "Second Manifesto" in 1904 which reaffirmed the church's opposition to the creation of new plural marriages and threatened excommunication for Latter-day Saints who continued to enter into or solemnize new plural marriages. Apostles John W. Taylor and Matthias F. Cowley each resigned from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles due to disagreement with the church's position on plural marriage.[16] Plural marriage continues to be grounds for excommunication from the LDS Church.[17]

The cessation of plural marriage within LDS Church gave rise to the Mormon fundamentalist movement.




Evolution of Latter-day Saint views on the Manifesto

The Manifesto has been canonized by the LDS Church, and its text appears in the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the church's books of scripture. However, when the Manifesto was issued, it was not apparent that Woodruff or the other leaders of the LDS Church viewed it as the result of a divine revelation.[18] Approximately one year after he declared the Manifesto, Woodruff began to claim that he had received instructions from Jesus Christ that formed the basis of what he wrote in the text of the Manifesto.[7] These instructions were reportedly accompanied by a vision of what would occur if the Manifesto were not issued.[7]

Following Woodruff's death in 1898, other church leaders began to teach that the Manifesto was the result of a revelation of God.[19] Since that time, church leaders have consistently taught that the Manifesto was inspired of God.[20][21][22] In 1908, the Manifesto was printed in the LDS Church's Doctrine and Covenants for the first time, and it has been included in every edition since. A non-Mormon observer of the church has stated that "[t]here is no question that, from a doctrinal standpoint, President Woodruff's Manifesto now has comparable status with [Joseph Smith's] revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants".[23] The Manifesto is currently published as "Official Declaration—1" in the Doctrine and Covenants.


>>>>>The LDS church beginning with the 4th President and completing its slide by the into apostasy by the 7th President is an abomination of cowardice and capitulation and unbelief. And this coming from the grandson of a Pentecostal Preacher who believes in Joseph Smith and all Mormon Scripture fervently.

Patriarchally yours,

John Lester

PS My claim that Brigham Young said that the LDS church would go into apostasy was from spending 3 days in the LDS Church historical library reading dozens of Young's sermons on Adam-God and other subjects. Young's prophecy of future impending apostasy for the LDS church is recorded point blank several times in Young's recorded sermons. Not from Woolley.

Walsh and I know so much more about this subject than you that we hardly bother to trifle with you, frankly...

And finally, less than one short year before getting his TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN revelation, Woodruff is on RECORD, and I've read it with my own eyes in the LDS Church Historical library, as saying that the LDS would

NEVER

give up the practice of plural marriage.

Less than one year later, he was kissing Protestant gentile ass...

...makes me want to vomit. :-(

LDS lost priesthood sometime between 1890 and 1918. I believe that it was officially in 1918.

It IS the church still...the best Christian church on earth POTENTIALLY...

...but the Priesthood and the Church are two entirely separate things.

And the LDS doesn't have it.

Remember, Joseph Smith HAD THE PRIESTHOOD before the LDS church was ever incorporated or organized.

8/3/08 8:03 PM  
Blogger Alma said...

Wow, a veritable goldmine for future posts--though addressing each would weary most readers. Let me make two suggestions: I don't care to fill up my blog with cut and pastes from Wikipedia. If you have a point to make, go ahead and make it, but I'm not interested in wading through other people's claims that you copy from on line encyclopedias.

Secondly, this is a family friendly blog. If you continue to post gutter language here, I'll delete your posts.

Obviously, the fact that you have read dozens of Brigham Young's discourses (dozens!) qualifies you as an authority on the matter; still, I prefer to have an actual quotation to reference. Your claim of having read it somewhere isn't sufficient. Without such evidence, your only source is still Lorin Woolley--and he has zero credibility.

Quinn and Hardy concluded that there was circumstantial evidence for WW marrying Mrs. Mountford. Subsequent to their claims, Thomas Alexander demonstrated that their conclusion was mistaken. It's disingenuous to claim that the two conclusions are merely differing opinions. Alexander's research was prompted by Quinn's and Hardy's assertions--and he demonstrated they were wrong. It's like the people who believe that Gore succeeded Clinton in the presidency. It doesn't conform to the facts of history and can therefore be ignored as wishful thinking.

You say the Church lost the priesthood and you say Brigham Young and John Taylor prophesied the Church would lose the priesthood. Joseph Smith said, "this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church." (MS Nov. 20, 1846) Do I believe you or Joseph Smith?

I'm not sure see why you noted that two members of the LDS 12 Apostles have wives sealed to them. Isn't it your point that we have given up that doctrine? That, and the citations about Pres. Snow and Pres. Smith continuing to live with their wives after the manifesto seems to be just ignorance on your part. What is your point?

I'll address some of your other comments later.

8/3/08 9:42 PM  
Blogger JohnLester said...

Strain at a gnat; swallow a camel. ;)

8/3/08 10:04 PM  
Blogger JohnLester said...

Matthew 27:52-53

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

>>>Do you think that these saints are STILL walking around in their bodies? because, based on your reaction to Woolley's claim of having seen and met Joseph Smith in 1886 (42 years after his physical body was martyred), it's obvious, if you're consistent, that if we were to find these saints' BODIES BACK IN THE GRAVE NOW you would say that the above two verses of Scripture are bearing false testimony. So EITHER those folks are STILL WALKING AROUND IN RAISED BODIES or YOU, Alma, don't believe in Scripture, and, I submit, therefore, really don't believe in God.

Because when something doesn't make "sense" to your "modern" mind, it's clear that you tend to dismiss it.

If you don't believe in the supernatural, if you don't believe in the Word of God as written, by FAITH, I submit that you, or any such person so inclined, DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

8/3/08 10:12 PM  
Blogger JohnLester said...

In other words, Lazarus DIED, and was BURIED.

Jesus RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Later, Lazarus DIED AGAIN and WAS BURIED AGAIN.

Think about it...

...the Giver of Life can do whatever in blazes whenever in blazes however in blazes HE wants to do it with whomsoever HE wants to do with at ANY time. As MANY TIMES as he wants to do it...for WHATEVER PURPOSES pleases HIM and HIM alone...without having to answer to either you or to me.

8/3/08 10:16 PM  

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